Technoguilt And Brexting
Expert Interview with Dr. Kristy Goodwin
I chat with Dr. Kristy Goodwin, a Digital Well-being and Productivity Researcher, Speaker, Author and Consultant. Dr Kristy is on a mission to help parents, their children, and professionals tame their toxic tech habits to stop being a slave to the screen.
Dr Goodwin provides her clients with research-based strategies to help them use technology in purposeful ways and counteract its negative consequences. Her advice is realistic to implement and doesn’t revert to phone bans or constant digital detoxes.
Dr Goodwin discusses the benefits of technology for pregnant women and new mothers, the effects of “brexting”, and guidelines around children’s screen time.
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About Kristy
Dr. Kristy Goodwin has shifted her focus to becoming Australia’s leading expert on peak performance in a digital world. A speaker used by large corporations on the topic of productivity in a digital world, Dr. Kristy’s keynote insights and inspiration are used by elite corporate clients in Australia and internationally.
Reach out to Kristy here: http://www.drkristygoodwin.com/
We explore the following questions:
What are the benefits of technology for pregnant women and new mums?
How can technology be used in a healthy and balanced way for new mums?
What are some ways to mitigate "techno guilt"?
How much screen time is considered appropriate for children at different ages according to government guidelines?
Why are the government screen time guidelines potentially problematic?
How can parents ensure that screen time doesn't displace children's fundamental basic needs?
What are some concerns about using technology excessively around newborns?
How does technology use during breastfeeding (brexting) affect the mother-baby bond and baby's development?
What are the potential risks of electromagnetic radiation from devices, especially for young children?
How can parents minimize their child's exposure to electromagnetic radiation from devices?
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Transcript
Julia Jones:
Hello and welcome to the Newborn Mothers Podcast. I'm your host Julia Jones, and today we've got Kristy on about technology. Now, Kristy, I'm just going to let you introduce yourself. I know Kristy from various online groups and I know that I and lots other mothers are always asking her questions about the impact of technology on our children. And so today specifically, I wanted to invite you on the show to chat about particularly the use of technology during those very early weeks and months and
even perhaps during pregnancy. But it's something I know that a lot of people are worried about and there really aren't very clear answers or information out there. So Kristy, let me know a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Sure. Thank you for having me, Julia. So I'm a mom in the digital trenches with other parents, and I was a teacher and then an academic. And I became really interested on the impact of technology and how it shaped young children's health learning and development. And it was whilst I was on maternity leave with my first son that I was visiting, I'd been to the paediatrician for the six month developmental check, and I got the all clear, but I was the A type first time mom. So I took my son back to our local health care clinic nurse to repeat the six month developmental check. Now, she didn't know that I was a technology researcher, and she sort of went through the regular questions, was he babbling? Had he started solids, was he having tummy time? And then she turned and asked me what apps he was using at six months of age, and I proceeded to say nothing. He was six months of age and he dribbled on me and not a screen. And the healthcare nurse proceeded to do the Skippy sound, which many Australian listeners will be familiar with the wagging finger. And the health nurse proceeded to tell me that I would let my son fall behind if he wasn't having a dose of about 15 to 20 minutes of baby Einstein DVDs every day. And that he should also be learning letters, nursery rhymes, and colours on the iPad at six months of age.
Julia Jones:
Oh my God. If you see my face right now, because see my jaw just drawing, I've heard some pretty bad child health nurse stories.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Yes, that's up there.
Julia Jones:
Wow, that's right up there. Yeah.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
And foolishly I'd made the appointment first time mom, I'd made the appointment at nine o'clock in the morning, so I hadn't been caffeinated, so I couldn't come up with a coherent response. I was absolutely flabbergasted because I knew as a researcher in this area that that was grossly incorrect, very misleading advice. And so I left that clinic appointment and then I finally got the non sleeping baby to have his nap. And during his, he had one of those sonic naps where they nap for four hours and you go in and check that they're breathing and then you commando crawl back out. And in the space of four hours, I started a social media campaign that babies need laps, not apps, and it went viral. And then at the same time I thought, I'm going to write a book about this topic because I knew as a researcher all of this great research was being done and is still being done today on the impact of technology and young children and the relationships they have with parents.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
But I knew having been a parent my first time, how much conflicting advice were often given. And I had that experience with the healthcare nurse where she was actually giving out misinformation and perpetuating myths. So I really fell into this work purely by accident. It was that one sort of serendipitous meeting with the clinic nurse that really spurred me on. And so I guess I take the research and science in terms of the neuroscience and developmental science and the work we know about technology, and then I translate it into what parents, teachers, and now health professionals need to know about technology and its impact on kids and their health and wellbeing.
Julia Jones:
I love it. I love it so much. It's been certainly exactly my experience because my audience is both listeners, the listeners are both mothers themselves and also a lot of them are actually professionals. I know it's something that professionals are finding it hard to get good information on as well. So one of the troubles that I often come across is midwives and doulas and that sort of thing is saying, moms are asking me, or I'm seeing the way that moms are interacting with technology and their children. And I don't actually know what the best suggestions and advice to give is because obviously I want to start by making sure everyone knows that you and I are absolutely not about guilt and blame. That's right. And that we can totally see there are amazing benefits of technology like this. We're doing this podcast right now because of screens, and so it's not about throwing the baby out with bath water, but do you want to talk a little bit about some of those benefits of technology for pregnant women and new moms?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Absolutely. And I think you've touched on something, I call it techno guilt. And I think any mom knows what mother's guilt is. I tried unsuccessfully to explain mother's guilt to my husband the other day. He looked at me as I was explaining a very convoluted, complicated scientific concept. But I think many of us feel pains of guilt, and I often call it that techno guilt and technology is here to stay. So suggesting that we abstain from using it is unrealistic and unhelpful advice. Instead, I think it's just about us finding healthy and helpful ways to use technology and at the same time minimising some of its harmful effects. And as you said, there are so many benefits, particularly for imminent or new mums. One of the things that we know, one of the reasons why we find it technology so appealing is that it caters for one of our fundamental psychological drivers as humans.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
And that is our number one need we all have, and that is the need for connection. We are hardwired for relational connection. We want to feel like we belong in connect. And so for new moms, this is why social media groups, this is why blogs and any other form of social interaction have become so popular because they give us a means to get that social interaction that we're craving. And I know for many moms, particularly geographically isolated moms, it's even more amplified. The early stages of motherhood often present social isolation. And so this is where technology can be great because we can get that fix and that sense of connecting with other moms and other people as well via our phones. I think it also gives us access to information. And this can be a double-edged sword. Dr. Google can provide us with some preliminary advice. And I always recommend, we obviously follow that up with qualified medical professionals. But when you're at 3:00 AM in the morning and questioning whether you need to be seeking medical advice, sometimes those online forums can give us some reassurance and or alert us to gaining extra help as needed. So I definitely think there are huge benefits so long as we're in control and using it in a balanced way.
Julia Jones:
Yes, I love that. And there's some research by Paul Zach that found that using social media increases oxytocin, which people often think that it's not a real thing that a connection on social media isn't a real connection, but your brain thinks it is a real connection and that certainly can be a real feeling of community. So I think it's really important. I also want to make a note here that some traditional cultures are actually starting to restrict the use of technology during the six weeks arch child. So lots of traditional cultures have these ideas of 40 days of resting and staying at home and that kind of thing. And in modern times, that has come to include in some cases banning technology. So I just don't think we should be that extreme about it.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
No, but I just wanted to jump in there. And I think that that's fascinating, that sort of concept of taking a break. And I think new moms are very vulnerable and there's this, a lot of research is coming out that tells us that heavy social media users tend to have higher rates of anxiety and other issues. And we also know that if we're always resorting to our phones, which is so easy to do in those early days when we are literally bed or chair ridden, feeding little ones that sometimes it can cause it can elevate our stress levels. And we already know new moms are dealing with a host of hormones post birth, and if we introduce a lot of social media or we are using it excessively, it can really overload our sensory and nervous system. And so we often enter what we call this hyper aroused state, which can be problematic again if it's used excessively. But I think like you said, moderated use can fulfil that need for connection. So long as it's sort of a balanced approach.
Julia Jones:
Yes. And it can be seen as a piece of the puzzle of connection. It certainly doesn't replace a real life connection, but it can be a way of finding like-minded people and connecting with groups that then you can meet in real life. So I agree, it's all got to be seen in a holistic way. And one of the things, a lot of moms feel really guilty if their kids watch TV and they ask me how much TV is too much tv, and you'd be better at answering that than me. But what I always say is, if you are worried that your kids watching too much TV instead of feeling guilty about it, think about building your village. Because a lot of the reason the people turn to their phones and their screens is because they don't have the real life support and connection and help that they actually need. And that traditionally we would've had that village of support. So if you're using the TV as a babysitter, maybe you actually need to get a babysitter or maybe you actually need to find some friends or neighbours who you can do kid swaps with every now and then. So trying to think of if the social media or TV screen use gets out of hand. And if you're worried about that, think of like, well, why am I doing this and how can I get to the root of this problem instead of just feeling guilty about it?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
I love that. And I love your perspective on looking at what's driving the behaviour so often. That is the first thing that I would suggest that people do before they riggle themselves again with that sort of techno guilt. In terms of time, this is probably one of the most frequently asked questions that every parent, whether I'm at the park pushing the swings and someone wants to know, we do have government guidelines or recommendations regarding all screen time, and I can share with you what they are in a moment. But like I always say to parents, rather than focusing and obsessing on how much and how much is important, really critically, we need to make sure that the amount of time kids are spending with whatever screen, tablet, tv, gaming, console, that their screen use isn't displacing their fundamental basic needs. And kids have seven basic needs.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
It doesn't matter how old they are. Kids need relationships, they need sleep, they need play, they need physical activity. They need what we call executive function. So these are sort of self-control skills and they also need good quality nutrition. And if kids' basic needs are being met consistently, then a bit of screen time isn't likely to derail their development. But if they're spending too much time on screens, then we can see how those fundamental basic needs, they might be getting enough sleep. They might, I left one out, sorry, I do remember it was social interaction relationships with others. So if screens are superseding those basic needs being met, then we do have problems. And we're seeing some preliminary evidence at the moment in schools where kids are entering formal school with some delays in language skills, social skills, fine and gross motor skills as well. And the preliminary evidence at this stage is because it's screen time has interfered with those basic needs being met. Yeah.
Julia Jones:
So this idea that your child health nurse was telling you that there's a given requirement that your child should be doing baby Einstein is actually completely the opposite, and that that's not going to help your child get ahead
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Developmentally. Absolutely. And in fact, the research actually tells us that, well, the company that made those Walt Disney brought out Baby Einstein DVDs and a lawsuit was placed against them a couple of years ago for over $26 million for false and misleading advertising because their marketing collateral suggested that those DVDs would bolster your child's brain development and boost their language skills. And both of those claims have been proven repeatedly in research not to hold true. Nothing beats ping pong interaction and gooing garing at your baby. So making sure those basic skills and needs are being met. And then if we did need to, for example, have a shower without fretting about our little one, then popping them in front of something for 10 to 15 minutes maximum would be an okay alternative, but not doing it in the guise of us preparing our little one for Harvard, for example.
Julia Jones:
Yes, absolutely. So what are the guidelines around the time
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
The government suggests, and I don't necessarily endorse these, and I'll explain why in a moment. At the moment, the government says no screen time for nor to two year olds. So that is talking about all screens, televisions, tablet devices, smartphones, laptops for two to five year olds, the recommended amount of screen time per day is no more than an hour. And for five to 12 year olds, the recommendations are for one to two hours of screen time a day. Now each country has different guidelines. They're fairly consistent though around those sort of figures. And my concern with these guidelines is that they only address one piece of the puzzle. It's important to know these guidelines have never been scientifically validated. So no one has done any studies to prove that one hour threshold for our two to five year olds is okay in anything exceeding that, and you're in dangerous territory.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
My other really big concern with these guidelines is they only focus on how much and yes, how much is important, especially if it's superseding their other needs. But what's more important I believe, is looking at other questions like what are they doing? Is it age appropriate? Is it developmentally appropriate, is it educational or is it leisure? Also looking at when there are times of the day when we need to be really careful, particularly around sleep and nap time. We know, for example, blue light from small handheld devices like tablets and smartphones actually emit blue light, and that blue light stops your child's production of melatonin, which is that sleep hormone. So over time, these sleep delays can accumulate into a sleep deficit. We also need to look at what places and spaces in the house is technology being used and also who a lot of research tells us that if kids are watching tv, for example, watching it with a parent or a carer in close proximity can really help them to understand and make meaning. So I think that how much is important, but it's not the only question we need to be asking.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, so there's so much more context to it than that. So for example, if your kids have a happy, healthy, busy week and then on a Friday night you watch a movie together that's exceeding the one hour dose, but you're doing it together and they've had good food, good nutrition. Absolutely. And they've got people around to explain the concepts that they're seeing and to be able to have discussions about things they might be learning or that they don't understand.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Absolutely. And that's a really important point. I think this is where my child health nurse went really wrong suggesting that a six month old watch Baby Einstein DVDs and it would prepare him for learning. We know that kids somewhere between 18 and 36 months start to make meaning from a screen. So before one and a half to three years, yes, they will watch a screen. You only need to see a newborn baby twist its head to try and find where the screen action's coming from to see how they become attracted to technology. But their brain is actually incapable of making meaning from a 2D screen and translating it to that real world until they're somewhere between those 18 and 36 months.
Julia Jones:
So let's take it back a little bit earlier. A lot of the questions I get are in those early weeks and months. So the children aren't necessarily, the babies aren't going to be watching the screen themselves, but the mothers often are. So this is the term that you introduced me to, but this idea of brexiting, I know a lot of women are, whilst they're breastfeeding, they're on their phones, either connecting with people, they might be reaching out for breastfeeding support from their mom's group, or they might be just reading for leisure, like reading an ebook or something, whatever it is that they're doing. How does that affect both? I mean, I guess the biggest concern is the bonding with the baby, but also radiation and those kinds of things. What are the impacts of that?
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Yes. Look, we're seeing some emerging studies come out in this regard, and it's obviously a tricky area to get ethics approval to do research. But what we are seeing, and I guess my concerns, and again, I'm fully transparent as a mom who breastfed with her little kids sometimes with her phone clutch to her hand, I understand how captivating it can be and how it can really help us fill that void. So I don't for a minute suggest that we suggest newborn parents digitally amputate themselves and should have every feed screen free. I know many parents of older generations said, I sat and flicked through magazines or I watched the telly while I was feeding. But a couple of things about technology that make it so much more engaging and captivating and difficult to switch off as compared to a book or a magazine is that when we're using our screens, we enter something called the state of insufficiency.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
And this is this idea that there's no finish point, there's no end point. We can always refresh social media and there's something else to look at. There's always another browser we can open, another podcast we can listen to. And so there's never that sense of being done. So we literally find it hard to switch off. My concern as both a researcher and a mom in this area is what we can potentially be missing out on if we're spending the entire feed and the whole every feed that we are having with our little one on our devices. So again, not suggesting we never do it, but if we are using it excessively or if it's being a sort of a habit that we're forming, we are worried about screens actually being a physical impediment to the baby, actually engaging in facial mapping. And we've done scans where we put newborn babies in MRI machines and actually look at what's going on in their brains.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
And we know that kids start to process, their visual system starts to mature before many other systems. And so when they're facial mapping, whilst they're feeding, whether it's breast or bottle fed, they're actually engaging in those really important visual processes. And they're obviously developing that essential bond with their parent or caregiver. And we know in many instances, I'm doing some work with lactation consultants at the moment who are telling me that the phone can sometimes be a physical impediment to the baby actually gazing at the mother's face or the caregiver's face. So that's one of the ways, and we know if parents are distracted all the time, sometimes they miss really important cues, the little winces or grimaces that kids might indicate so we can facilitate that bond. So there are some concerns in that regard. And again, just a balanced approach, making sure that the whole feed isn't on your device, maybe waiting till your little one starts to wear out or nods off and they're not as interested in that facial mapping, just finding other ways to avoid always using the device as a distraction.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love it. I love it. And what about radiation? Do we know anything about
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
That? Look, I'm going to be the first to say we have so much scientific uncertainty in this area. However, I have been to several electromagnetic radiation conferences and my husband now tells people I've become a wifi warrior and a wifi warrior. And my concern, we don't yet have proof of harm, but we also don't have proof that these devices are safe around kids. And I am really worried as cautious, Kristy, I'm worried this could be the asbestos or the tobacco of the 21st century. And the reason I think we need to be really careful, particularly with newborn babies and young children, is that their skull is thinner than that of adults and they have more water in their brain than adults do. Meaning that if, and I stress that word in big bold letters, if we do have health risks associated with wifi exposure, our young kids are very vulnerable just because of the way their brain is designed.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
So a couple of things I say to parents, again, trying not to have routers. I know many family homes often for whatever reason, designed purposes or rebuilds often have routers in the nursery. So keeping wifi routers out of high traffic areas where your baby or your kids are turning devices to aeroplane mode when you don't need wifi access, speaking on loudspeaker as opposed to having the phone up to your ear. And many toddlers that start to become vocal often like speaking to parents or grandparents on the phone. And always making sure that's on loudspeaker, just minimising exposure where we can, because I would hate for us to look back in five years time and think, wow, there were really serious risks and we totally overlooked them. So yes, a lot of uncertainty. But yeah, I err on the side of caution to minimise exposure.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, that's really good advice. And we won't really know for probably decades if it's really a problem or not, but we may as well take those precautions
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Now. That's right.
Julia Jones:
Yeah.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Another one too is avoiding your phone. When we try and pick up the signal and we wave the phone around trying to pick up the wifi signal when we have poor reception, sending a text message or just not using the device at all is a much better alternative because our devices are pumping out electromagnetic radiation in those instances to pick us up a signal.
Julia Jones:
Oh, interesting. Minimising. So that's the highest electromagnetic radiation when they're trying to
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Connect. That's right. Interesting. In low signal areas.
Julia Jones:
Interesting. Oh, okay. Because Apollo people would probably think the opposite, that a high signal area would have more radiation.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Yeah. No poor reception areas. Your phone is working harder, so it's emitting more of the radiation. Yes. To pick up that signal. That's right.
Julia Jones:
Great. Thank you so much. I
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
Think you've covered everything that I wanted to know. Do you have anything else to add? And then also I'd like to let everyone know about your ebook too. No problem. Look, I say to parents, and it doesn't matter what age range, I speak to parents of newborns, right up to 16 year olds and also to employees in the workforce. And my main message is this and that is that we need to tame technology and not be a slave to our screens. And I think if we can start to develop those habits early on with our young children, if we can model them, and I know as a mom who loves her phone as well, that this can be sometimes really challenging for us to do. But if we can start to foster those habits, our kids will develop healthy technology habits because the reality is whether we love it or know that they will inherit a digital future.
Dr. Kristy Goodwin:
So I have, my digital home is@drKristygoodwin.com, and I've got a wealth of information for parents and caregivers there. I've got some eBooks on bite-sized topics for parents of particular ages as well. And they can be found on my website and I can send you through a link as well if you'd like, Julia. Yeah, we can definitely include that link in the show note. I have downloaded some of your eBooks myself, and I know that they are really excellent. And I always love your approach because it's very informative and it's very sensible and realistic, but also not making people feel too guilty or worried and not being naive and thinking that we can just avoid this whole situation. Lovely. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. My pleasure. Alright, see you later. Bye.
