Podcast Episode 88 - Retreats for mothers as a counter-cultural act of love
Interview with Rachael Hollinger
I chat with Newborn Mothers graduate Rachael Hollinger from NOURIS(her) and The Pause. Together we discuss how we can honour mothers through retreats, caring for them in the way they care for their children. At the core of this conversation, we explore how retreats for mothers are a countercultural act, subverting martyrdom with nourishment.
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About Rachael
Rachael has a degree in culinary arts and is a Postpartum Doula and Chef at NOURIS(her). She completed her training with Newborn Mothers in 2018. Rachael is motivated by her own challenging postpartum experiences. In addition to working with her clients, Rachael teaches online, and in-person workshops writes and speaks about mother-care, facilitates mothers support groups and gatherings, and is the author of the E-Cookbook NOURIS(her): using food to heal the new mother. And now offers retreats.
We explore the following questions:
How did you find your way towards running retreats as a postpartum doula?
As you become more experienced as a postpartum doula, what is emerging as your longer-term vision?
What is the role of food in honouring a postpartum mother?
What are your retreats about? Who are they for and why do people go?
Why is running retreats for mothers such a countercultural act?
Was it really hard to sell the tickets to the retreat?
Why did you intentionally leave a lot of space in the retreat itinerary?
If other people are thinking about doing similar work in retreats, what would you tell them?
What have the retreats meant to you personally as you facilitate them?
Additional resources we spoke about:
NOURIS(her): https://www.nourisherdoula.com
The Pause: https://www.the-pause.com/
Newborn Mothers Podcast, Episode 40 - How To Grow A Mother: https://www.newbornmothers.com/blog/how-to-grow-a-mother
Newborn Mothers Podcast, Episode 70 - Gently Dismantling Oppressive Systems: https://www.newbornmothers.com/blog/gently-dismantling-oppressive-systems
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Transcript
Julia Jones:
Hello and welcome to Newborn Mothers podcast. Today we have Rachael on again. This is her third time on Newborn Mothers podcast, so I'm really happy to hear about the next chapter and get another update. If you want to hear more about Rachael's backstory, you can go back and listen to episode 40 and episode 70.
Rachael's background is in culinary arts and she now works as a postpartum doula and still does a lot of cooking and recipe book kind of stuff. Rachael, you've also done a really broad variety of work. You've taught online, you've done in-person workshops, you've done public speaking, facilitated support groups and gatherings. You're the author of a recipe book.
I know you've worked with some really unusual clients as well, like adoptive parents. Now you're offering retreats as well, which I'm really keen to hear a little bit more about too because I know a lot of our students are interested in offering retreats. Since you were last on the podcast, you've also moved to Maine. That's a little update. Is there anything you want to add?
Rachael Hollinger:
No, that was very thorough.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Oh, good. I was going to say, do you want to add anything? But I managed to get it all.
Rachael Hollinger:
You're right. I have not intentionally dipped a toe in a lot of areas of postpartum care or maybe just not even just postpartum, maybe feminine work. It's been really fun because I think that, once you get into any birth work really, there's all these rabbit trails and all of these little offshoots that you can get into. I think I've tried a lot of those. It's been really interesting. My work with food too before becoming a postpartum doula opens all these other doors. It's fun for me to find creative avenues for both of those things to marry.
How did you find your way towards running retreats as a postpartum doula? (02:26)
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love that. You've touched on a lot of the things that I wanted to ask you about today. One of them is like, how do you find your place in all of that? With our new course where we're calling the role Postpartum Education and Care Professional, because we're noticing the need for both care and education. I know that you've done a bit of both as well. Also encouraging people to bring in their existing skills. For you, that's cooking. Other people might have experience with massage or even surprising things, like events management, that they might not think are transferrable skills, but actually they can still use them and it still creates a unique kind of postpartum care.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I'm sorry, do you want to add to that?
Rachael Hollinger:
Well, I was going to say I'm a firm believer in following what you're most passionate about. That's when you find the most success, I think. For me, launching these retreats, I'm working with mothers all the time, but then, I'm seeing this greater need even outside of that, of women really needing to have space. Have an extended period away from what's causing trauma, triggering trauma or creating burnout and all of these things, and helping women to explore self-care in a more intentional way.
Self-care is obviously a very overused word now in culture, but that was something that felt really exciting for me to think about doing. To cook, I really love cooking for big groups. So I just decided to go for it. I think that's when I found the most success is when I found something that I was just really excited about.
As you become more experienced as a postpartum doula, what is emerging as your longer-term vision? (04:13)
Julia Jones:
I love it. There's just so many different ways that you can support and work with new families. I love that you've just been really experimental, open-minded and really just tried a lot of different things. As you become more experienced, what are you feeling is the main thing. Or is anything emerging as what would be your longer term vision or focus?
Rachael Hollinger:
Oh, my word.
Julia Jones:
Or just everything?
Rachael Hollinger:
Everything. This is a very big part of my personality too, that can be good. It could also be to my detriment that I'm an idea machine. Sometimes I feel that I need a second... an employee to help carry out my ideas. Because I have a lot of creative energy that way, and I'm constantly thinking things up. Then, I'll get a little ways into it and realize I have way too many irons in the fire and I'm starting to feel burned out. That's been a pattern for me. But recently, I think I've honed in on, getting it more in tune with what's working for me as an individual.
This year, that's been a big focus. Postpartum care is outwards focusing. It's like it's a servant role in a lot of ways. That can be really emotionally and mentally exhausting after a while, no matter how much you love it. I think this year I just started trying to focus in on what's going to work for me and my family, what feels the most organic and fulfilling to me personally.
Really playing more with food and figuring out how. I mean, when I'm in the kitchen, I'm just the absolute happiest. Coming out of post-COVID, if we can really use that kind of language, it felt really important for me to do things that were connecting face-to-face with people, being in homes, being in kitchens again. Doing dinners where I could sit, communicate, talk and love on people in a very real way just felt like something that I needed to do.
So projects just sprang out of that. I think that that's where I'm finding myself most focused now. With retreats and with getting back into doing in-person care when I was doing virtual support for so long. Then I also just did, I totally forgot to mention this to you even before we started this interview, but I this year have been working on a project with a company in Japan that approached me and said that they wanted to start a postpartum meal delivery service there.
They ended up hiring me and bringing me on their staff to develop all of the recipes for that line. That has been this whole year, an ongoing project. Actually, the business launches in Japan on Mother's Day, so we're really close to wrapping it up. That's been, again, really heavy on a food focus and recipe development is something I've done in my past before, so that's been really, really fun to do as well.
As you become more experienced as a postpartum doula, what is emerging as your longer-term vision?
What is the role of food in honouring a postpartum mother? (08:05)
Julia Jones:
Amazing. I'm finding quite a few of my students are getting these kinds of opportunities. As postpartum care I think becomes more mainstream, there is more bigger organizations, clinics and that sort of thing. Then they're asking some of my students to help them, exactly like you're saying, develop the recipe or just help them to understand more of the detail of how do you actually deliver this service.
I think your background in culinary arts too, for people who don't know, it's a little bit different than being a chef, isn't it? Because it's more, includes more of the presentation, the plating, the service, the whole experience of food. But I think that's really suited to postpartum as well, because it is all the smell, the texture, the look, the experience of the food is such an important part of the care. I can see why they've chosen you to help with that.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, it totally is. I think it's so... It's so fun for me, one of my favorite things when I'm working, when I'm in home working for a client is if they're in bed and bringing them this plate of food. I really don't hold back on. I don't treat it just because I'm in a mother's home and she's in a state of undress, or the house is messy, or it might be a raw or vulnerable situation. I'm not going to make the food any less gorgeous.
I really played it, and there's garnishes and I go all out. It's always so fun to bring that into her and there's all the like, "Oh my goodness, I just thought you were going to give me a bowl of oatmeal. I didn't think I was going to get all of this." I love that moment, I think it's a real way to honor the mother and also help her feel like a real person in that place of not being sure who you are anymore or if you matter.
It's all feeling like drudgery to really lift her up out of that. The food plays a really important role in that, I think.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love it. It reminds me of a concept in business and marketing where you try and delight and surprise your clients. You wouldn't necessarily include in your package that your food will be served with a garnish, a drink and a vase of flowers.
It's more like an unexpected delight and a surprise that makes that service just rave-worthy. They're just going to tell their friends, "I just had the most beautiful, caring experience. She really looked after me. I felt so loved and nourished." On a much deeper level than if it'd had just been... And there's nothing wrong with having a bowl of oatmeal, but adding those details really shows the care, doesn't it?
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, it does. There's so much about a postpartum home visit that isn't easy to communicate that feeling of what it feels like to be cared for that way when you are in a state of just complete self-sacrifice. I feel like the magic of it too is that, of course, clients know somewhat what they're getting when they book with me, but the magic is all of those extra little things that you can't communicate.
Fresh flowers that I had from my garden that I bring along with me. Or maybe I get there during lunch, so I make them a surprise lunch and dinner. Or whatever it is that makes it feel like, ‘Oh, wow, this feels above and beyond’. That's just so much fun.
Julia Jones:
It makes so much sense then that you've moved into retreats because that's really what retreats are about, having that immersive experience and taking people really out of that daily drudgery.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah.
What are your retreats about? Who are they for and why do people go? (12:14)
Julia Jones:
Tell me more, there's lots of different kinds of retreats. What are these retreats? Who are they for and why do people go on something like that?
Rachael Hollinger:
Our business is called The Pause. It's actually, my business partner is also a graduate of Newborn Mothers. I don't think I ever mentioned that before. We met because of the graduate program that we were both in at the time. She is now one of my dearest and closest friends. Thank you for that, Julia. Actually, two of my best friends I met through Newborn Mothers. Which is just wonderful.
Julia Jones:
It's funny because I tell people that our graduate group is the best place on the internet.
Rachael Hollinger:
It is.
Julia Jones:
I say that as a bit of a joke, but genuinely, I can hardly even ever think of a time that anyone's been offensive, that I've had to block someone or delete comments. It's such a beautiful space with such caring people. I learn so much from all of you too.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, it is. It's really, it's incredible. I mean, maybe you should just start marketing, "Oh, you'll meet your next best friend." Or maybe that's a good push for you.
We met there. Years down the road we had been talking about our skill sets. She does a lot of breath work, meditation and coaching. We found that we both had this secret dream of starting a retreat or doing retreats for mothers specifically.
It felt important to us because there's so many retreats. I mean, you can do a Google search of retreats and there's beautiful, beautiful retreats all over the world that come up. They're mostly for yoga, for those who are running a business or things like that. You don't really see retreats run for mothers because I guess there's this idea around it that, well, then they'd have to find childcare and mothers aren't really in the season where they can step away from that or somehow that mothers are under-resourced, that they wouldn't be able to invest in something like that.
I feel that there's a lot of interesting ideas around it. We felt that mothers were probably one of the only groups of people on the planet that truly deserved retreats, to be really honest. This workforce in communities, that's pretty much keeping everything going. Why in the world do we not have this?
That was the mentality behind launching it. Then, as we were building it out, we decided to gear it towards... The tagline of it is the Pause Retreats: upscale, but grounded retreats for creative mothers.
Julia Jones:
Ooh, I love it.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, we really focus on helping mothers come back down into their bodies after becoming a mother, no matter what stage of motherhood you're in. We do that through things like meditation and breath work, and then we jointly, my business partner, Ava and I, both do soft coaching. We have a morning circle and an evening circle. We say soft coaching because it is a very gentle and feminine approach to that. Whereas we're not giving advice necessarily. It's not self-help. It's trying to help women come back into touch with their intuition and with their bodies after the disassociation of childbirth.
We'll do self-massage workshops or forest bathing or things like that. It's woven through with times of really deep rest. There's lots of downtime and time to sleep in, which obviously is what every mother wants. Then of course, just the food, it’s just really beautiful food. I cook for the entire event. It's usually three to five days. We do lots of baths and herbal care.
It's just all the beautiful things that you could possibly want. We just really return to that idea of coming home to yourself and also mothering the mother. In fact, one of the first things that we tell participants when they all arrive is that we recognize that you've been feeding, bathing, caring and listening to your children or all the other people in your life. So, we are going to feed and bathe and take care of you. It's the most magical thing. Every time we do it, I just feel like on a high afterwards. It's one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
Why is running retreats for mothers such a countercultural act? (18:04)
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love that. I want to take you back a little bit too to the idea that mothers don't go on retreats. I think we have a real block or barrier in our capitalism and productivity mindset that we should only invest in things that will somehow have a tangible outcome or make some money.
I know that I'm guilty of that too. I use my business as an excuse to go on retreats a lot. The retreats I go on, I went on one not that long ago, just late last year that was sold as a business retreat for creatives. Most of the businesses there were musicians, photographers or artists and that sort of thing. Then there was me who might not typically seem like a creative business, but I consider my work very creative. I write and I do lots of creative work.
What really surprised me, and I hope my accountant isn't listening, is by the end of the five days I was like, I'm not really sure that this should be a tax write-off. I'm not really sure that I can count this as a business expense. Let's be honest of what's really happening here. We're using our businesses as an expense to be able to eat nice food, sleep in, go to the forest, go to the beach, hang out with some awesome people. It was wonderful. It was such a lovely experience. But really, were there really tangible benefits for my business? I don't think so.
Why can we not just say, "I need to rest, I'm going to go on a retreat just because I'm a human, not a robot. And everyone needs to be nourished"? Anyway, I just think it's a real cultural shift to have things like childcare when you're not working for money. It's seen as really indulgent, selfish or greedy. It's funny because men would go play golf or weekend and that wouldn't be considered a big deal.
Rachael Hollinger:
Absolutely.
Julia Jones:
Why not mothers?
Rachael Hollinger:
The whole process of anyone even purchasing a ticket to come on one of the retreats feels like such a countercultural act. We really do try to address that when they first arrive, that we realize that maybe this required bravery or maybe this required you to think differently about your gender role or something like that, that you're here.
Because it certainly required that of us as the creators of The Pause. I mean, we kept meeting so many of our own blocks. When we first created it, it just felt like we had so much hesitancy to make this website live and actually try and sell these tickets. Because we had to ask ourselves, "Why do we think that no one's going to invest in this?"
We had all of our own fears that people were going to look at us weird and say, "Why are you encouraging mothers to leave their children?" To be honest, we had emails or Instagram messages that said as much, "I reject the fact that being a mother means that I need a break from my children." I think it was people who were well-meaning. I also think that we can become really entrenched in that martyr mother mentality. We just forget that if we aren't well, then nothing else in our sphere is well. Not in our home, not in our community.
Yeah. The thing is that we do book them, and it's pretty incredible to see. Again, we're not welcoming anyone into that space to come and be fixed. We're just simply giving space. Mothers are traditionally not people who are given much space to feel or to think or to be. That's a really powerful thing when you're someone who's really open and receptive to that, to receive that gift of space can make such a huge difference.
Julia Jones:
I love it. It's so beautiful. This retreat that I just went on recently, one of the most lovely touches was actually as we were all leaving in the morning, it's a long drive home, some people were flying home. I think for me it was a six hours drive. It's a long way. They all sent us off with little lunch boxes, snacks and drinks to take in the car.
Rachael Hollinger:
Oh, sweet. I love that.
Julia Jones:
It was so gorgeous. Those are the kinds of things that we do for our children all the time. All the time.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yes.
Was it really hard to sell the tickets to the retreat? (23:39)
Julia Jones:
We're constantly thinking about, what's my husband going to eat? What are my kids going to eat? Do they have a water bottle? All of these kind of things. For someone to just do that for me was just such an amazing experience. Anyway, I just think this is so magical and transformative. My next question is was it really hard to sell the tickets?
Rachael Hollinger:
I don't know. Yes and no. It would come and go in spurts where we would sell quite a few and then it would be nothing for months. Then we'd start to sweat again and be like, "Oh no, we're not going to sell any of them." Then we'd sell a lot again. I don't know. We definitely have had to do a lot of marketing and a lot of showing up and talking about the concept and why we feel it's needed.
Then we've had to trust that it was going to land in the right place and that the right women would be there. It was really interesting because there were definitely people who had contacted us and said, "Hey, I want to come. We're all set to come." Then, "Oh, no, my child needs an emergency surgery and I can't come. Or I just lost my childcare and I can't come."
Or we even had one situation where there was a shared room and one of the roommates couldn't make it. There was this one woman who was just going to have this room by herself. We were like, "Oh, well, that's I mean maybe it was meant to be." Three days before the retreat was going to happen, I got an Instagram message from someone who was like, "This is absolutely crazy. I'm sure there's no more tickets left. But I'm wondering if there's anyone that has a room that they might want to share because that's what I can afford. I have some really deep work that I need to do. I just feel like it's been keeping me up at night, and I feel like I'm supposed to be on the retreat." So I was like, "Yes, we do. We have an exact situation."
Julia Jones:
You are meant to be on this retreat.
Rachael Hollinger:
The groups of women that are there, it feels so right. Everyone there is supposed to be there. I think we've had to trust that process.
Why did you intentionally leave a lot of space in the retreat itinerary? (25:58)
Julia Jones:
Yeah, like so many things with starting any business, a lot of it is just a leap of faith. Isn't it? You just don't know what's going to happen. You just have to trust the process and take a chance.
I love how intentionally light it is too. You obviously have some amazing food and you've got a bit of things like breathwork and meditation. I'm just looking at the itinerary on the website. There's a lot of space there. People want to come and do their own inner work, their own writing, their own exercise, meditation or whatever it is. There's time to do that.
Rachael Hollinger:
It was intentional on our part too, to leave quite a bit of space. We just felt, as a culture, we are very uncomfortable with space or silence. We just don't quite know what to do with that. That can be uncomfortable when we say, "Hey, you have three hours." Sometimes women will be like, "What do you suggest I do?" We'll be like, "Well, are you tired? Do you want to go sleep? Or do you want me to run you a bath?"
Julia Jones:
Oh my God, I am tired.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, I know, right? It's just, that mothers don't receive those kinds of invitations. So that was really important to us to not have it feel like let's leave our busyness for another form of busyness. It's pretty slow, but it feels really nice. Then everyone has had a chance to go take a swim by themselves.
It's things that feel totally unheard of as a mother. "What, you're telling me I'm going to go down and just go down to the beach and just swim by myself?" I've never done that in my life. I think that alone feels really revolutionary because often women will come back from those, "I took a walk by myself, or I took a swim, or I sat in the bath for a while." They'll come back and be like, "Oh, my word, I heard myself or I realized something." It's nothing that we're doing, we're just cultivating this really beautiful space for those moments to happen within each woman.
If other people are thinking about doing similar work in retreats, what would you tell them? (28:29)
Julia Jones:
I love it. Have you got anything to share in terms of lessons? If other people are thinking about doing similar work? What would you tell them?
Rachael Hollinger:
Well, I would encourage them that there's definitely a need for it, even if it doesn't feel obvious. I guess when we started, like I said, we had some worries that no one was actually going to want to come. But there's been a real response to it.
I think just generally, not letting your own inhibitions or your own beliefs about what people might want to spend their money on or what people might want to step away from. Just the believing in the power of creating an invitation. Also, just following your skillsets because I mean, a retreat could go... There's so many fun things you could do with that.
We are offering what we know we're really good at, but you could tweak that in any way. I think it's really needed. I think that there should be more of it, whether it's for five days or whether it's for one night. I think that would still be super valuable. There would still be an audience for that too.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love that because food obviously is your thing. But actually on the retreat I went to, the food was amazing, but didn't the person hosting the retreat didn't cook. You can just get caterers and things if that's not what you love doing.
Rachael Hollinger:
Right. Right.
Julia Jones:
Then I saw one of my other students in Victoria, but she's doing retreats with saunas. I was like, "I'm in." if that wasn’t so far away.
Rachael Hollinger:
It's so good.
Julia Jones:
I agree with that.
Rachael Hollinger:
I know, that's one of our dreams is to have access to a sauna for one of these. Actually, before I had started The Pause, I did a little retreat solo that was just for two nights and a friend helped me out with it. We did have sauna there. We did skinny-dipping and sauna and went back between those two things all evening. It was completely magical. It's still one of my favorite nights I've ever had.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. There is no limit to the different kinds of things that you can do. Just choose what you're good at and enjoy it.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, absolutely.
What have the retreats meant to you personally as you facilitate them? (31:42)
Julia Jones:
Thank you so much, Rachael. This has been so amazing. People can find you at the-pause.com as well as Nourish Her. You are an Instagram. Your Instagram is beautiful. That's where you shine as an artist. I can see your love of attention to detail and beauty. Is there anything else you want to share about your work before we wrap up?
Rachael Hollinger:
Well, I think if I would just throw it out there that our retreats aren't really... We've had people come from all over, so we welcome anyone from anywhere. Each retreat, we do at a different destination. The next one we're doing will be in September here in Maine, which felt really fitting because I just moved here with my family and it's just a magical place.
We have this really beautiful, modern architectural home on the coast and its own beach and mossy forest. It's just going to be so much fun to design that space for these guests. If you want to come on one, there's one in September. Then the goal is to do them twice a year. That's what we've been doing so far.
So there will be more to come. If you're interested in keeping up on when and where The Pause is happening, you can do that on our website and sign up for our newsletter. I'm just thankful for the opportunity to talk about it because obviously, I feel very strongly about it and I love what I do.
Julia Jones:
Thank you so much, Rachael. I think the last thing I want to just mention too is that a strong part of any rite of passage is the idea that you leave and return. A retreat is just such an intentional way to do that, isn't it? To facilitate a change in a role, to acknowledge a change. To embrace who you are, your next stage and things. I just think it's so perfect for motherhood.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, it really is. Sometimes just that change in location can make all the difference as well. I know every retreat that we've done now, I've personally walked away with something that felt really like a significant discovery within myself. This past one that we did in the fall and it was in Ohio, which is a very random spot to even have this. On the final dinner, I always do this big sit down, plated dinner, and it's just really gorgeous. We do this really beautiful tablescape and it's so fun. I made this cake that just felt like it came out of my imagination. I'd never made it before. I just felt in my heart, we were in the forest and I wanted to make a cake that tasted and looked and felt just like moss. I called it the ode to moss.
It was exactly what I had wanted it to be. Then when I served, it was just one of the women came up afterwards and she was like, "This cake just feels like a hug. I just feel so loved by it. And I have never tasted anything like it." I had infused it with pine. After making that cake, I had to go back into my private room, and I just started crying. But it was tears of relief of just this feeling that I was doing exactly what I was supposed to be doing. That when I started working with food when I was 19 years old, I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. I didn't know what was going to feel right, but I knew that I wanted it to make some sort of personal impact.
It just felt like a really full circle moment for me that I could think of a cake in my mind and make this cake and make it with so much love, intention and kindness. That it felt like that to eat it and it was with mothers. The whole thing just felt like so full circle and so serendipitous for me.
I think to have those kinds of experiences, sometimes we have to step away from everything that we know and put ourselves in a position where we're working with something that we've never done before. It's been really valuable to me as well. I'm not participating, I'm hosting it, but it's just still been really, really incredible for me.
Julia Jones:
Oh, I love it. That ode to moss cake, it reminds me of something you'd have in a Michelin restaurant or on Master Chef or something. How much more meaningful to make it for mothers? I just think that's, again, it's a real subversion, isn't it?
Rachael Hollinger:
It is. Then you have to ask yourself the question of why does this feel so radical to make something that we would consider upscale or expensive for a mother? What does that say about what status in society we believe mothers to have?
I think it's just a really eye-opening thing to look at. Does it feel like I'm doing something expensive for someone who's lowly? Is that what this is? I just think it's opened up some good conversations because I think there's been definitely women around the table who have felt like undeserving of that. That's powerful.
Julia Jones:
Which alone is worth the investment, isn't it? To be able to explore those kinds of cultural conditionings.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yeah, absolutely.
Julia Jones:
Thank you so much. This is such meaningful work and so important. Thank you for sharing so generously as well, what you've learned. We'll share your websites and so on in the show notes. I'm sure we'll have you back on the podcast again sometime. Thank you.
Rachael Hollinger:
Yes, stay tuned for my next instalment. It's always really lovely chatting with you. Thanks for having me on again.
