Building financial sustainability that honours your life
Interview with Charlotte Pickering
I chat with Newborn Mothers graduate Charlotte Pickering from Kin by Charlotte. Together we discuss Charlotte's transition from a job into postpartum work, how her offerings have evolved and the impact of working locally. At the core of this conversation is the need to value ourselves and our work, so that we can build financial sustainability in a way that honours our home and family life.
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About Charlotte
Charlotte is a postpartum doula, sleep-in advocate, mum, and lover of great food. Charlotte has worked alongside families for 15 years within the health and education sectors. After becoming a Mum in 2020, Charlotte decided to launch her business, kin. Charlotte offers in-home, and in-your-pocket (online) support to families, as well as mentoring spaces for bold business owners (just like you!) to dream big for their biz. You can connect with Charlotte on the ‘gram @kinbycharlotte and kinbycharlotte.com
We explore the following questions:
Who were you before you were Kin by Charlotte?
How did you transition from a job to postpartum doula work?
When you studied, were you considering this work as a career?
How long did it take to start making money?
How did starting a business in a pandemic look for you?
How can you be mindful of burn out and sustainability?
Have you been able to recreate financial stability for your family again?
What does working locally look like for you?
Have you got any other big ideas for the future?
How have you rethought the definition of success?
What's the importance of pricing in earning a living wage?
Additional resources we spoke about:
Podcast - Episode 81 - Building A Doula Village - https://newbornmothers.com/blog/building-a-doula-village
Podcast - Episode 59 - Inclusive Language - https://newbornmothers.com/blog/inclusive-language?rq=raff
Podcast - Episode 11 - 21st Century Village Building - https://newbornmothers.com/blog/21st-century-village-building-interview-with-rafferty-hallows?rq=raff
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Transcript
Julia Jones:
Hello and Welcome to Newborn Mothers Podcast. Today, we've got another graduate story, Charlotte, whose business is called Kin, Kin by Charlotte. And I'm so excited to have you on today, Charlotte. Because one thing I really love about teaching is you teach a box of skills, and then as you see people graduate and they grow their wings and they leave the nest, seeing people come up with their own unique ways of applying what they've learned and expanding on that, creating new visions and new ways of doing things, and new ways of being happy, successful, supporting moms. And you've absolutely been a joy to watch as a graduate, seeing where you've taken things. So I'm excited to have a chat to you today.
Charlotte Pickering:
Oh, Julia, it is such a pleasure to be chatting to you in this way. I listened to Renee and Micka's episode on the way to a family yesterday. And like them, it feels so full circle to be chatting to you in this way. So thank you for having me on.
Julia Jones:
Oh, pleasure. It's such an honour. You all inspire me so much. That was a great episode as well, if anyone wants to go and listen. I think it was just the last episode-
Charlotte Pickering:
It was.
Julia Jones:
... before this one.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah.
Who were you before you were Kin by Charlotte? (1:21)
Julia Jones:
And today, what I'm really interested to hear about is, I guess, just your journey, where you started and where you've ended up. So let's go and start from the beginning. Who were you before you were Kin by Charlotte?
Charlotte Pickering:
Oh my goodness. It's such a good question because I feel like such a different person to before I became a mother. I live out on Wurundjeri country, so I'm based in the Yarra Ranges, just in Eastern Naarm, which you might know as Melbourne. So I live and work on beautiful Wurundjeri country. I'm just looking at a very bustling Birrarung River at the moment. I live here with my two-and-a-half-year-old daughter Ruyi, my partner Pete. And the things that really light my fire right now are food and eating good things and catching up with the people that I love, which feels like such a gift after a very long lockdown period for us, Melbournites.
I love yoga and bush-walking and being out amongst nature. And I think it's really interesting, Julia, because I used to do a podcast as well, or I have a podcast on Hold at the Moment. And I think, so often, we introduce ourselves as mothers and what we do when we don't necessarily sit with what makes our heart sing. So I think that's an important part of how I've come to this part of my life as well. I absolutely wasn't always a postpartum doula. I have a background in health promotion. So I've mostly worked in women's health and gender equity and family violence prevention. I've worked in international development.
And when I fell pregnant in 2019, I was absolutely that person that thought that I would have a baby and everything would bounce back. I hate bounce back culture, but you know what I mean. That sets straight back into work once they arrived. And I thought I had the dream job. And matrescence is a wild, wild ride. And essentially becoming a parent tore absolutely everything apart whilst also reinforcing everything that I knew to be true. And the journey to becoming a parent meant that I essentially blew my life up. And we, both my partner and I, quit our jobs and we moved, and I started a new business and it was such a huge 180 to where I thought my life was going to be, where my life was heading.
But my goodness, becoming a parent has really made me tune into myself and live this idea of a best life. I don't want to be thinking about, we'll be happy when, or life will be awesome when. We just decided, holy heck, we just got to do the damn thing.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I love it. And there's nothing like the urgency, I think, of becoming a parent, is it?
It really makes you realize that every minute counts. And yeah, what's important, what's valuable, and it gives you a fresh perspective on that.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's a hard journey. I don't necessarily know what parts of, I guess, the beginnings of Kin are because I became a parent and which parts of the beginnings or dreaming up of Kin is because we were in lockdown and things were really pretty darn miserable. I think that's a really hard thing for me to pull apart from one another, because anyone that had the perfect plan on paper, that got blown up by lockdown, especially if you're in Melbourne. And we got to the point where we were like, we could have absolutely every single duck in a row and it could be pulled away from us. So we just need to be living our biggest, boldest lives.
And I like to think about business as a bold biz. Because we talk about small business all the time. There is nothing small about running your own business. You have to really back yourself and make bold, gutsy, hard-ass decisions for it to be successful.
How did you transition from a job to postpartum doula work? (5:30)
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I totally agree. And am I correct, did you literally quit your job overnight? Did you have anything else lined up or a backup plan? Was there a transition or did you just rip that bandaid off?
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes and no. Mostly No. So I gave birth in January 2020. And there were whispers of COVID at that point. But by April, so six weeks into parenthood, and we know about that six-week marker, things really started blowing up here. So it was probably when I had a six-month-old that I was like, I think low key, I had always thought when I grow up, acknowledging that I was already a grown-up, I might study midwifery. But the process of giving birth and experiencing matrescence for myself really made me recognize that there was so much scope to be supporting families on the other side of that journey.
I had always worked with families in some way on quite high-scale family violence prevention initiative that was really heavily publicized and quite a big deal in Victoria. And I suddenly realized I could actually be making a really big difference by just working with families one on one, and that was really meaningful as well. So I did a little bit of a search. I was following Naomi from Cocoon at that time, so I knew about you. And I decided to study your course as a birthday present to myself, and also as just a little bit of light in the lockdown haze.
And it was so professionally reassuring that it was also so personally affirming in the way that I wanted to parent and the way that I wanted to support people and the things that families deserve. And I knew at that point that Kin was going to be born. I then went back to-
When you studied, were you considering this work as a career? (7:33)
Julia Jones:
So at the time that you studied, you weren't even sure if you wanted to do this as a career?
Charlotte Pickering:
Not necessarily.
Julia Jones:
That's a pretty bold move.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. To be fair, I thought, maybe it could be something that ticks along on the side and then we'll see what happens. I was the primary earner in my family. I was earning six figures. That was unheard of in the health promotions sphere. That was very amazing job. I was so good at it. I felt like it was absolutely my path. But when I returned back to work in December, I really quickly realized that that fire was no longer there and it didn't feel right, and that if I kept doing it. Yeah, we might be financially really well off, but I would absolutely burn out and I wouldn't be the parent that I wanted to be.
So I quit three months later in April. And at that stage, I had been recording the podcast for about six months, but I didn't have any clients.
Julia Jones:
Is this still April 2020 are we talking? Or this is 2021 by then?
Charlotte Pickering:
2021 by then.
Julia Jones:
Yeah.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. So I started studying-
Julia Jones:
So your daughter is just over a year.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
You've done the course. You quit your job.
Charlotte Pickering:
Quit the job.
Julia Jones:
Started your podcast.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. Didn't have any clients locked in at that stage, and I just thought, "I'm going to be able to give it my all if I just do the deep dive." And so I did it.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. So for listeners, I'm a deep-dive person, a rip-off-the-bandaid person. And I did the same thing. Just quit and jump in and see what happens. And hopefully, you'll float and not sink.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
But I also know that doesn't work for everyone.
Charlotte Pickering:
Oh, absolutely not.
Julia Jones:
So there's a lot of our students as well who do like this, swinging back and forth, a little bit of this, a little bit of that while they get the hang of it. And that's completely valid too.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
But I do love hearing about these head-first stories as well.
Charlotte Pickering:
Oh my gosh. And I have to acknowledge that the job that I was working in gave me the ability to put a nest egg aside. So we had some stability. I knew the business wouldn't make money straightaway. I think we so often get fed this idea of like, it's your dream, and so it'll be successful. And that is not the reality. So I didn't make money for six months, but I knew that I could lean back on the savings that we had collected. And we also blew up our life in many other ways. So we moved from inner city Melbourne to the country, and that meant that our mortgage was actually cheaper than our rent. So we made a lot of big decisions.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, yeah. It's like your whole life was aligning to your new self.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I think that's a really good point too that you make, that it's not an overnight thing. And I think women especially are sold this, particularly through multi-level marketing schemes and-
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely.
Julia Jones:
I don't know. There's so much boss babe mindset stuff out there.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah.
Julia Jones:
I think mindset is massively important. However, it's definitely not the only peace. You can't just wheel yourself rich. So yeah.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely.
Julia Jones:
You got to do the work and you got to have something to lean on whilst you figure it all out.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely. And you've got to sit in the light and gray of what that's going to look like. There were some days where I was like, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this podcast, Julia, but, "What in the heck have I done? This is the worst decision." And then there were other days, we're like, "Absolutely, this is the best choice for us right now." So yeah, don't think that it's going to be an overnight success. It might be. But the reality is that it's really hard big work.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. That's really important.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah.
How long did it take to start making money? (11:22)
Julia Jones:
So six months to start making money is pretty quick though.
Charlotte Pickering:
Is it?
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Yep.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. Look, it had many, many, many ups and downs. We moved here in April of 2021. And then I don't think any of us could have predicted that we would go into another lockdown. And so that was just such a huge spanner in the works when I lost all childcare, and just had to think about what's the business going to be like during this period? What are we going to do to get through this? How will we hold space for Ruyi? What the heck are we doing, essentially?
Julia Jones:
Yeah. It was a real curve ball that year, wasn't it, for Melbourne. I think, I still can't quite believe we're talking about it as retrospectively in the past.
Charlotte Pickering:
Right. Yeah.
Julia Jones:
I still feel like a lot of people have a little bit of PTSD, like feeling that it's going to happen again. So yeah. It's been so hard for you guys.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think in so many ways, we need to give ourselves space. We've been expected to dust ourselves off and be back to business as usual. Tomorrow's a pretty significant day for Melbourne as all of those disaster things drop away. And I'm having that conversation so much with families at the moment because it's really... Yeah. Yeah. I think people think like it should be fine and it's all normal, but my gosh, we've gone through so much, you really need to give yourself the space to process that. And of course, it's big and hard.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Yeah.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah.
How did starting a business during a pandemic look for you? (13:05)
Julia Jones:
So I've had a few discussions with people now, again, retrospectively starting a business during a pandemic. It's not really anyone's first choice.
Charlotte Pickering:
No, not really.
Julia Jones:
So how did that look for you? I mean, you were moving to a completely new place where you didn't know anyone. We had all these lockdowns, so weren't allowed to go out and meet people in the same way.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah.
Julia Jones:
How did you do that?
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. I was really lucky that I made the decision initially that I would still work across Naarm. So I'm about an hour and a half outside of central Melbourne, but I knew that the initial demand was still in Melbourne. And so I gave myself the grace for the first year to still work with Melbourne families. So I was very lucky that I had a network there, so I didn't necessarily have to be known in the community that I was moving to straight away. And that made a really big difference.
And that's been a really slow burn. It's so hard to network when we've had so many restrictions. And it's something that is still something that I'm growing into, to be fair. It's absolutely a priority for me in the coming months to make sure that I can service local families so that I don't burn out as well.
How can you be mindful of burnout and sustainability? (14:25)
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I think it's a good point. There's a lot you can do in the first year or so of business when you've just got that real hustle and that grit when you're working at nights from your dinner table and all that kind of stuff.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
But it's definitely not a long-term sustainable business plan.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely not. And I think you almost need to be really comfortable in knowing when to say no and when to refer on. The doula community that we exist in is actually so magical. I've never worked in a way where I've felt so held and supported by a community of other women doing this work. And I think as soon as you can let go of this idea of I have to take absolutely every inquiry in whatever form it comes in on, and think about, okay, who are the people that I can work alongside informally to refer onto them, knowing that that will then come back to me as well. And that's made a really big difference, especially in the last six months for me, because it's just too hard to be everything, everywhere, all at once.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I think that's a really important thing that we see this whole bunch of people, all as contributing to the same vision. We're all doing this together.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely.
Julia Jones:
And it's not a competition at all.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. We're actually better when we're working with the other people in this space. Right? Like we get fed this idea that you exist in a patriarchy. It's a capitalist society where you want to put yourself ahead of the pack, but that actually doesn't work in this work. It works best when we are really sitting into, what you talk about in the course, these feminine ways of being and these feminine ways of working. And that is in a collective. So that's really important.
Have you been able to recreate financial stability for your family again? (16:14)
Julia Jones:
Yeah. So you now have plenty of clients. Are you happy with where your business is now, and have you been able to recreate that financial stability for your family again?
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a big, big question. And absolutely, I... So in my first year of business, I made a much smaller amount of money than I was previously, but I've already doubled that this year, which is so massive. It's something that's now sustainable and it's sustainable in ways that are really important to me. So it's financially viable at this point, which is really key, because we need to be charging in meaningful ways for our work because I think so many of us step into this space, and after a year or two, we're so burnt out and we can't keep doing it anymore.
But it's also sustainable in a way that I'm living a family life that's meaningful for me. So I work three days a week. We have care for three days a week, so that's possible. And I set hours that are really tuning into what I need to make sure that I'm feeling rested and recovered as well, so that I can give my best to the families that I'm walking alongside. So that's taken some time.
And I think it's interesting how that's progressed for me because I definitely started with a model that's similar to what you talk about and definitely similar, I think, and you can correct me, Julia, in the way that you used to work. So I used to have set packages and I would charge a certain fee for that now. And that worked well to get started. But as I learned a little bit more about just how big this work can be and how much goes into each visit, I realized that I needed to sit with this idea of what I actually did want to earn as an hourly wage and how many hours went into each session with a family.
And when I actually mapped that out, I have been able to come up with ways to make this viable for myself, but also to give a bit of flexibility to the families that I work with and for. So I've completely moved away from packages as a set offering, and I offer price-per-visit options. And it means that I can pay myself for all of the work that goes into it, as opposed to making a number that feels really accessible to a family. Because postpartum care isn't a luxury item. But we also need to acknowledge that it's not a mainstream thing to do to invest in postpartum care at the moment.
And so we need to find a balance between paying ourselves but also really making it accessible for the families that we want to support and walk alongside.
Julia Jones:
I think there's a lot to be said for individual visits too. Because not always, but a lot of the time, people need to have experienced it to even know what it is that they're investing in.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely. Yes.
Julia Jones:
I would say most people in our culture don't have an experience of being supported in the way that you support people.
Charlotte Pickering:
No.
Julia Jones:
But once they book that first visit, they'll be like, "Great, can I book you for another 10?" And also, one thing I love is you add what you call toppings. So on top of the visits, you can also have online check-ins or support to go to appointments, food drops. So people can really then, once they've built up that trust with you, they could come back to you for all kinds of things. Because people might only need visits early on, but want food drop-offs for months.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think we create offerings in so many ways that reflect what we would want to buy. And for me, I would want, what I wanted was to be held and to have visits in home. And food is my love language. So I was like, I want really big food deliveries. But for some of the families that I work with and for, that's not what they necessarily want. So to give them the option to mix and match from those different visit options really means that they're getting something that's perfectly tailored to their family, because no family is exactly the same. We all have different needs and wants and things that light our fire. And so by being able to build their own package alongside me, then they're getting exactly what they want.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love it. I love it. And it means that actually you end up making more money because people can keep adding on, "I want another visit and I need another visit. And I actually want six months of support. And actually, I want a year of support." And I've talked to a number of my graduates who, sometimes, they still start with the package, but where they actually really start to make the most income is with those adding things on.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah, definitely. And I'll be honest with you, Julia, generally, I've only just opened my books hyper, hyper, hyper locally for one-off visits, because I think a one-off visit is absolutely great. But oftentimes, you access a one-off visit when you're in crisis. And when you're already in crisis or it's already feeling really wobbly and hard, you are already on the back foot. This work does work best when we have an existing relationship and we know one another and we've spent all of those monthly check-ins, building all of the things to have you held and supported. That is the best version of this work.
But also, some of us give birth and we don't hear about postpartum doulas until we're on the other side. So it is a constant dance for me. And I would absolutely love to have everyone that contact me be able to book in. But we also book out so far in advance as doulas. So there's this constant dance for me of building some time in my calendar to service those families that need that one-off support, and then they will access ongoing things, and also holding the space for families that need that longer-term support too.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. And one more note on that as well is, when people first want to be doulas, they want the templates, they want the formula, and they want just someone to tell them how does this work? What's the equation?
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
But it's really not like that. As a teacher, I often will give someone a formula just as a starting point, because you need somewhere to start.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely.
Julia Jones:
But what I really love is then seeing what happens a year later after you've had some experience, you've had some clients, and you know what works for you and your family. And then you actually completely throw that out the window and do things in a way that works for you and your clients. And that makes me so excited.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes. It's big, right?
Julia Jones:
Yeah, it's huge. Because then the work goes so far beyond what I teach within the modules of the course. It becomes real, and I love that.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes, yes, absolutely. I agree.
What does working locally look like for you? (23:16)
Julia Jones:
So one more question I want to throw at you is, what's next? So it sounds like you want to get some more local clients.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. I think it's just so important. I have loved, and I still work with families in Naarm, Melbourne, and I think it's so magic. But there's something to be said about having someone a whole lot closer to you. It opens up that possibility of like, "Hey, there's a little bit of a s*it show at home. This has come up and we need someone to respond a little bit more immediately." And it gives me the ability to be more present for that type of work. So I'm trying to think of an example.
Something that comes up a lot is, families, coming home from the hospital and then getting COVID, for example. And so what I will then do in those moments is switch my offerings to online support so they don't forfeit any of their visits. But it would be so much better for that family if I could then say, "Okay, what I'm doing is doing a meal drop at your door at X, Y, Z." And at the moment I do that, holy heck, it's a really big trip for me to do that going into Melbourne. And it would feel so much better for me if that was something that was more localized and more sustainable as well.
Or like, we haven't slept all night and we actually don't have our visit until next Monday, and it's now Wednesday evening and you are technically not working for the next few days, then I could say, "Okay. What we are going to do is, Ruyi and Pete are going to have dinner here, but I'm going to pop on over and I'm going to switch around this visit." That's actually not necessarily possible for me in this season of early parenthood to do that when I've got a three-hour commute.
And so I think it's very important for me to know when it's time for me to honour what the families that I support need. And what they need, I think, and this isn't what everyone necessarily thinks, but they need someone that's just around the corner too because they need the best care and support in this season. So knowing where my limits are is something that has taken a really long time to sit with and to be comfortable with as well.
Julia Jones:
Yes. Well, it takes a while to even learn what they are. You have to have a certain number of clients before you even know actually this doesn't work for me.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
This isn't sustainable in the long term.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
There's something to be said too. I used to love doing that as well. I used to have quite a lot of local clients. And I loved being able to, I don't know, visit them in the hospital after the baby was born, and it's just for 15 minutes, but to drop off some food or something. So I love that. But the other thing I love about hyper-local work is you become the village doula.
Charlotte Pickering:
Totally.
Julia Jones:
And you will see those families over generations. So I still bump into the midwife who was present when I was born, so my mom's midwife, because she lives in the same little town as me. So we just see each other around. And the same, the midwife who was at my children's births, lives in the same, even smaller area, literally probably 500 meters from my house. So I see her at the beach and we chat and she takes her grandkids to the park and I'll see her around. So I think that role is one we've lost. And I think that continuity of care is just so valuable.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. It means that when you pass them at the shopping centre and you have that conversation of like, "Hey, how are you really?" It can have a bit more of a follow-up, that's not as formalized as like, "Okay, now we need to add X number of visits," Because-
Julia Jones:
Yeah. We can put you in three weeks’ time when I've got an available spot. Yeah.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. And that's a hard thing to shake. I came from an office style of working. And I think we are so conditioned around what professionalism looks like. And it's taken me a really long time, Julia, to shake some of those shackles off and really lean into actually what are my values around working with families, and what's important to me. And Raff from Veggie Daddy shares some really beautiful things around this, and they talk about, this work is meant to be gnarly and this work is meant to be really personal.
If you're not loving the families that you're working with, then it's really hard to do this work effectively. It is a professional relationship, but we cross so many professional boundaries in the patriarchal and capitalist sense when we're doing this work. And we actually need to pull the systems apart and to make sure that families are so held and seen and centred and loved.
Julia Jones:
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Charlotte Pickering:
It's hard.
Julia Jones:
It is. It's huge. I love Raff's work too. Raff's been on the podcast a couple of times. So we might link to all of those podcasts that we've talked about-
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
... today as well, because we have so many amazing graduates, and it's such a thrill for me to be able to hear all of these stories. So more local clients.
Have you got any other big ideas for the future? (28:40)
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah. I would love to really lean into some more evergreen pieces of work. Something that I do have that I think is so valuable is the piece of work that I share with families as we work together. So I do offer monthly complimentary check-ins. So from the time you book, we start to really sit with what this is going to look like. So I've created a threshold postpartum booklet, and I'm going to spend some time in the coming weeks, really safeguarding some time to make sure that that is really schmick and what feels right, so that I can make it available on my website, so that anyone can access that.
Because like you're saying, I don't necessarily think you can even imagine what postpartum care and support can really look like until you've had a little taste of it. And for some people, investing in a booklet is actually going to be the only way that they can do that, because it's a really big deal to say, "You know what? I deserve to invest this amount of money in this." And we all absolutely deserve good care and support, but we don't exist in a community that really tells us that constantly.
So having some really accessible resources on the website that comes with some support from me as well, so I can really scale up the families that I can work with in different ways is really important for me in the next 12 to 18 months as I sit with a new transition of parenthood as Ruyi heads off to kinder. So I'm feeling like there's going to be a bit more think space coming into my life in the next 12 months that I'm very, very ready for because this dance is wild and I'm ready for a wee breath.
Julia Jones:
Oh, that's amazing. I'm so excited to see all of that. And what I love is your honesty of talking about, how you don't exactly know what all of that's going to look like.
Charlotte Pickering:
No.
Julia Jones:
But you just try it out and you see what works and then you change it up a little bit. And over time, it's constantly evolving and growing. And yeah, I love that.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah, you've got to. I think it's constantly really tuning into your heart's work because that's where you are going to shine anyway, and your heart's work is going to change and evolve so darn quickly. So giving myself the grace to actually shift and change and let the business grow in ways that is meaningful is, yeah, the dream. Amazing.
How have you re-thought the definition of success? (31:09)
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Beautiful. Have you got anything else you want to share before we wrap up?
Charlotte Pickering:
No. No, don't think so. I was trying to think before.
Julia Jones:
Well, I'm inspired. I love what you've already talked about. I love that you've found this balance between the sustainability of work in terms of finances, and also the sustainability of work in terms of your home life and your lifestyle. And I think we don't actually talk about that enough, that actually there's a large cost of work-
Charlotte Pickering:
Oh, absolutely.
Julia Jones:
... and we just accept that as a given. It doesn't have to be like that.
Charlotte Pickering:
And actually rethinking success, right Julia? We've fed this idea of a successful business is a business that earns X amount of dollars and that's all about money. But a successful business is about a whole lot of different things too. So we've really got to really lean into what success looks like for us and rethink it on a bigger scale too.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love that. And in terms of impact as well, and job satisfaction and so many things.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
What's the importance of pricing in earning a living wage? (32:22)
Julia Jones:
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure, Charlotte. Where can people find you and Kin? And if someone's listening to this going like, "Oh, I want to work with Charlotte," what do they do?
Charlotte Pickering:
Yeah, sure. So you can find me over on the Gram @kinbycharlotte. You can also check out my website, which is kinbycharlotte.com. You can actually access all of my offerings on my website there. It was really important for me to remove all of the blockers for families, but also for doulas. I know we're not meant to base our offerings on someone else's, but we all look at those email lists and we know that people are downloading it to see what they can charge.
So I really wanted to make sure that I was very transparent about what I charge because this work deserves a meaningful salary as well. It's really important work. So you can find me on my website, you can find me on the Gram. And I also offer lots of informal mentoring options too. So if you're a doula and you're like, "Heck yes, I want to talk more about X," slide into my DMs and I'll send you a e-link so we can chat. That's one of my favorite things to do.
I love this work, and I think we're so much stronger if we're chatting openly and honestly about the good bits of this work, but also the bits that are really sticky and tricky and hard.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I love that. I love that you talk about the transparency of prices as in raising, actually raising people's expectations of prices.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
Because when I first started, my prices were high, higher than I think anyone I knew had ever charged before. And I used to hide them for that reason, because when I joined a local doula group on Facebook, I scrolled back through a few posts before I joined and I saw them actually bitching about me online and my prices. So I felt really protective of that. But I know for a fact that most of them aren't doulas anymore.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
And I am. So I'm like, "Well, you just have to charge a living wage." You have to be able to pay your rent and bills unless you won the lotto or you've got an inheritance or something.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
It just has to be viable. And so I love that you're doing that in the opposite way. You're not hiding your prices, you're showing your prices because you want to show people that actually you can make this work.
Charlotte Pickering:
You absolutely can make this work. And actually, the only way you will make this work longer term is sitting with what you want hourly, sitting with how long each visit actually is. So I offer food. And so that means there's a cook involved and there's transportation involved and there are the face-to-face visits involved. And really making sure you're paying yourself super and putting the taxes aside because you don't want to get to the point at the end of the financial year and say, "I have worked my absolute butt off. I've put my heart and soul into this, and this is what I have to show for it and I can't keep doing this."
We're not actually of any good to the families that we want to support if we're completely burnt out. So we need to make sure that we're valuing our own work too.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I love that you talk about super and how you paid yourself super from the start, which is something I strongly advocate for and teach a lot.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
But then one thing I learned recently, which I thought was really cool, is actually women who were self-employed pay themselves more super than women who are employed by others.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes. Interesting. Yes.
Julia Jones:
Yes. I thought that was actually quite huge.
Charlotte Pickering:
Yes.
Julia Jones:
So you get to be your own boss. You get to treat yourself as well as you deserve to be treated. And I hope that you all listening, and you obviously are Charlotte, but I hope that everyone listening believes in themselves, their value enough to know that they do deserve to be paid, not only paid, but paid super, and to be able to pay taxes and to be able to have time with their family and all of those things.
Charlotte Pickering:
Absolutely. Yeah. We know women finish with less super than men. The stats say a third to 50%. That's just not good enough. We can't be talking about supporting women through doing this work and then not valuing ourselves as well.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. What a joy. Kinbycharlotte.com. We'll pop all the links in the show notes. And thank you so much for sharing so generously.
Charlotte Pickering:
Oh, Julia, it's been such a delight. Thank you for having me.
Julia Jones:
Thanks. Bye.
Charlotte Pickering:
Bye.
